Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

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Elleth
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Postby Elleth » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:19 am

Hunh. I'd not thought of the literacy angle, but it makes sense. Most all our viewpoint characters are of high social standing, so we're certainly getting a skewed view. I follow most all your instincts Udwin.. though if forced to speculate I'd say the literacy rate of Dale was probably about on a par with that of Minas Tirith. I'm not certain if that means more like 5% or more like 60% though.

We do have a reference to rangers "using Runes" to leave messages - though of course that doesn't imply functional literacy.

For what it's worth, I've read that systematic oral-history cultures can keep remarkably good records in living memory, with bards training for years to memorize long epics verbatim: both the bards of Gaelic Ireland and those who preserved what would become the Illiad for Homer come to mind. Given their Anglo-Saxon inspiration, I'm virtually certain the Rohirrim have such a culture, and expect the same of the Dunlenders.

I've no idea about the Lossoth or Druedain, but doubt either has the same sophistication.
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
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Mirimaran
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Postby Mirimaran » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:51 am

A very fascinating discussion that was well worth reading! I don't have much to add to it except that I hate faire accents with a passion (we once had a guy try to tell us some sort of story at faire in a terrible Scottish brogue. I paid him not to finish) and that one of my proudest moments was while in my Ranger garb, complete with star, asked if I was a sheriff or something. My simple reply of, "I am a Ranger of the North" drew only puzzled stares. I reckon that the Dunedain thought as little of most of the Bree-folk as they do of them, and considering that there were spies in Bree, I would think that the Rangers would keep as low a profile as possible. Being little more than beggars and vagabonds (in the eyes of most Bree-men) was the best disguise possible. In my stories I do take artistic license a bit with the speech of the Rangers, but in the conceit of being recorded by Daffodil, I can imagine she had a thing or two to do with that. :)

Ken
"Well, what are you waiting for? I am an old man, and have no time for your falter! Come at me, if you will, for I do not sing songs of dastards!"
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SierraStrider
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Postby SierraStrider » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:01 am

Manveruon wrote: Perhaps something like a subtle York or generic "Northern English" accent could work - or maybe something closer to Scandinavian...?


Straelbora wrote: Considering that the Dwarves were taken from Norse/Germanic myth, live primarily in the North, etc. , I believe a Scandinavian accent would be more appropriate. However, before you know it, you're sounding like the Swedish Chef from the Muppets.


For those talking about whether Scandinavian is more accurate than Scottish for Dwarves, it's worth pointing out that Scotland is, by many definitions, a Scandinavian country, and this is apparent in their speech. Words unique to Scottish among English dialects--"She's a braw bairn, d'ye ken?" are directly lifted from Scandi roots--"Hon är en bra barn, känner du?"

I could probably post a video on the finer points of pulling off a Swedish accent, if anybody's interested.
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Elleth
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Postby Elleth » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:53 pm

This is somewhat counterintuitive.. but the closest real living tongue to that of the Khazad may actually be Hebrew.

I just went back through the history of Westron ("Common") again, and found Tolkien's own descriptions of the "faintly Semitic" character of Westron's ancestor, Adunaic. Further, that Dwarvish ("Khuzdul") was a strong influence in its early days apart from the more mellifluous elven tongues.

What few words we have of Khuzdul seem to bear that out:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Category:Khuzdul_words

... now I'm imagining the Dwarves talking like surly Russian Jews or laconic Israelis, and the mental image is weird. But... perhaps not far off.
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Peter Remling
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Postby Peter Remling » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:14 pm

Elleth wrote:This is somewhat counterintuitive.. but the closest real living tongue to that of the Khazad may actually be Hebrew.

I just went back through the history of Westron ("Common") again, and found Tolkien's own descriptions of the "faintly Semitic" character of Westron's ancestor, Adunaic. Further, that Dwarvish ("Khuzdul") was a strong influence in its early days apart from the more mellifluous elven tongues.

What few words we have of Khuzdul seem to bear that out:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Category:Khuzdul_words

... now I'm imagining the Dwarves talking like surly Russian Jews or laconic Israelis, and the mental image is weird. But... perhaps not far off.


Oy Vey ! :D
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Postby Manveruon » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:02 am

Elleth wrote:This is somewhat counterintuitive.. but the closest real living tongue to that of the Khazad may actually be Hebrew.

I just went back through the history of Westron ("Common") again, and found Tolkien's own descriptions of the "faintly Semitic" character of Westron's ancestor, Adunaic. Further, that Dwarvish ("Khuzdul") was a strong influence in its early days apart from the more mellifluous elven tongues.

What few words we have of Khuzdul seem to bear that out:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Category:Khuzdul_words

... now I'm imagining the Dwarves talking like surly Russian Jews or laconic Israelis, and the mental image is weird. But... perhaps not far off.


That's fascinating! And what's more, I could SWEAR I heard or read somewhere that Tolkien deliberately gave the Dwarves a smattering of more-or-less Jewish-inspired characteristics (though as usual I now cannot remember for the life of me where). But linguistically at the very least, I definitely think there is a case to be made for Hebrew influence!
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Elwindil
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Postby Elwindil » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:24 am

so, something like Tevye from Fiddler? I can see that.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Postby Darnokthemage » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:02 pm

Always though of the dwarves as having an almost Norwegian accent, or maybe some of the old farmer-accent of "Bondska" from Northern Sweden.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLnN-HIAC2c

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