What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Hard Kit is all other accoutrements that are not clothing, weapons or armour. This includes pots and tents, and flint & steel, and other things like that.

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JeffCee
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby JeffCee » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:45 am

Peter Remling wrote:All good stuff one suggestion: At least one of your spare arrow heads should be cut or ground out of flat bar stock so you have a 2 dimensional hunting or broad head. To use it for archery you'll have to affix it by sandwiching it between the shaft. The reason behind this style is two fold, first it's quicker to affix to a shaft than a socketed arrowhead and more importantly, if you attach it to a longer shaft, you have a good spear for fishing.

Almost everything in your kit should have multiple purposes.


!!!! Awesome! I'm doing it!
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby JeffCee » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:50 am

Taurinor wrote:
JeffCee wrote:The waxed jute primarily for light, fire making and in third place, cordage.

If your plan is to use it for light and fire making, I'd second Harper on the candle stub! Just bung one in your tinder box/bag - not like they take up much space or weigh much.

JeffCee wrote:the heavy waxed thread I use could probably double as snare or fishing line (going to research that) and the hooks are a great idea!

My understanding is that pre-WWII, most fishing line was linen. Historic Angling Enterprises has a fair amount of information on fishing from 1400-1800, if you're interested in that.

JeffCee wrote:He kept his pipe in his bedroll If I remember right... The whetstone is on his belt in its own sheath, so that's covered in a future build.

I'm guessing from these two statements that you're going for a movie-based Aragorn impression? Manveruon has done an excellent reproduction of the PJ kit - don't know that he's posted it here on the forum, but I've seen it on FB.


Very cool website!
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby JeffCee » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:18 am

Elleth: I feel like a magnifying glass could be found in Gondor. They have pretty good tech. Or maybe as an heirloom of Numenor?
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby JeffCee » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:20 am

Greg wrote:
Taurinor wrote:I'm guessing from these two statements that you're going for a movie-based Aragorn impression? Manveruon has done THE BEST POSSIBLE reproduction of the PJ kit - don't know that he's posted it here on the forum, but I've seen it on FB.

Fixed that for you.



Does he have a list of whats in his belt pouch? Looking forward to checking out his kit
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby Elleth » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:10 pm

Elleth: I feel like a magnifying glass could be found in Gondor. They have pretty good tech. Or maybe as an heirloom of Numenor?


This is an interesting question. But the answer comes in two parts.

First is the actual question of the question - "did glass lenses exist in Middle-earth, and were they used to start fires?"

Looking through the text I see no references to anything of the kind.

Of course, we all know absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There's surely tons of material culture Tolkien never had occasion to mention in passing.
On the other hand, there's Michael Martinez's rejection of the "Uzi Rule" - i.e. "assume that anything exists if Tolkien doesn’t specifically say that it does NOT exist" - otherwise we'd have orcs running around with Uzis.

So what I'd normally do in this sort of situation is look to historical parallels. A bit of a wiki-wander on the topic of burning glasses finds that they were known in Classical times:

The technology of the burning glass has been known since antiquity. Vases filled with water used to start fires were known in the ancient world.[citation needed] Burning lenses were used to cauterise wounds and to light sacred fires in temples.[citation needed] Plutarch refers to a burning mirror made of joined triangular metal mirrors installed at the temple of the Vestal Virgins. Aristophanes mentions the burning lens in his play The Clouds (424 BC).[1]

"Strepsiades. Have you ever seen a beautiful, transparent stone at the druggists', with which you may kindle fire?"


Archimedes, the renowned mathematician, was said to have used a burning glass as a weapon in 212 BC, when Syracuse was besieged by Marcus Claudius Marcellus. The Roman fleet was supposedly incinerated, though eventually the city was taken and Archimedes was slain.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_glass

However, digging just a bit deeper shows that the reference in Pliny and Aristophanes are to a naturally occurring stone. I presume some kind of quartz, but haven't dug into the topic.

This is a very interesting silver-mounted crystal lens from a Norse context, presumably originating from the Byzantine Empire:

visby_lens.jpg
visby_lens.jpg (30.43 KiB) Viewed 843 times


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visby_lenses
https://www.vikingrune.com/2009/01/viking-lenses-visby/

It looks like these were only widely written about c. the 1990s, so I'd not be surprised if the Professor had never heard of them. (I certainly hadn't!)
Therefore I'd be extra-cautious of assuming that because they existed in the real world, they must also have existed in Middle-earth.

Ground glass lenses as we know them today seem to have only really taken off in the late 13th century - that's a good couple hundred years too late for how I read "heroic age" Middle-earth, but we all have different reads there. Certainly I can find no references in the text to glasses or lenses of any kind, although glass drinking vessels, beads, and even mirrors are mentioned.

All of which is to say in "literary Middle-earth" the question is unanswerable, but I personally would not carry such a thing. if I *were* to use a burning lens, I'd try to find a rock crystal one in something similar to that Visby form, ideally in a metal frame with Tolkien-derived decorative motifs.


In the "Jackson Cinematic Universe" however we may have a different answer. We see Gandalf in the library of Minas Tirith with a magnifying waterglass:

gandalf-in-the-minas-tirith-library.jpg
gandalf-in-the-minas-tirith-library.jpg (176.77 KiB) Viewed 843 times


You can see such a thing in use in Tudor Monastary Farm Episode 1 (at 34m26s):


I would think that if anyone had access to ground lenses in the lands of Men, it would be the library of Minas Tirith. And yet here Gandalf is using a waterglass rather than a ground magnifying lens of glass *or* crystal.
This scene doesn't rule out glass lenses (the Tudor example above is after the invention of primitive spectacles, for instance) - but given the prestige of the library Gandalf is studying in, it does make the prospect a bit dimmer amongst Men I think.

On the other hand, while I can't find an image of the scene we do see a dwarf using a magnifying lens to inspect craftwork in the beginning Erebor scenes of the first of the Hobbit films. In fact come to think of it I have a vague memory of that prop surfacing on eBay in the last few months, and I believe there's a picture of it in the The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Chronicles: Cloaks & Daggers book.

edit - this is the lens from the Cloaks and Daggers book: the text says WETA made it for Gloin's kit. I have a dim memory the loupe in the Erebor prologue was set in a wood or faux stone frame, vaguly conical in form, but with an octagonal cross section:
gloin-loupe.jpg
gloin-loupe.jpg (19.37 KiB) Viewed 838 times



So... yes. It's defensible for "Movie Aragorn" to have a magnifying lens.

But that leads us to Answer Two, which is probably going to have to wait until tonight so I can get some work done. :)
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby JeffCee » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:19 am

OMG Elleth. the research you do! EPIC!
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby Kortoso » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:03 am

I wouldn't assume that in an ancient context, the lens was glass; natural quartz was indeed used, and we might satisfy ourselves (usually) with common glass cast or ground to shape.
The Hudson's Bay Company fire kit (copied from an original antique) apparently originally had a quartz crystal lens, and now it's sold with a glass replica.
Image
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby JeffCee » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:03 am

Kortoso wrote:I wouldn't assume that in an ancient context, the lens was glass; natural quartz was indeed used, and we might satisfy ourselves (usually) with common glass cast or ground to shape.
The Hudson's Bay Company fire kit (copied from an original antique) apparently originally had a quartz crystal lens, and now it's sold with a glass replica.
Image


I dig these. Can you carry a flint and steel in there without scratching the lens?
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby Roac Asgaroth » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:15 pm

JeffCee wrote:
Kortoso wrote:I wouldn't assume that in an ancient context, the lens was glass; natural quartz was indeed used, and we might satisfy ourselves (usually) with common glass cast or ground to shape.
The Hudson's Bay Company fire kit (copied from an original antique) apparently originally had a quartz crystal lens, and now it's sold with a glass replica.
Image


I dig these. Can you carry a flint and steel in there without scratching the lens?


Image

you can see in the right side of the picture-when i was given one of these by a buddy, he included a thin piece of leather. protects the lens, and makes it rattle a little less. an easy bit to make yourself, and improve the kit!
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby Kortoso » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:15 am

I wrap the flint and steel with a cloth to keep them from rattling about, so the lens is safe from being scratched.
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby JeffCee » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:03 pm

State of the kit.
the list with little "x" next to it is what I have collected or made so far. Still need to add or buy the rest. then Ill make the pouch!

A flint and steel X
a magnifying lens X
a metal box of Hobbit matches X (Steel, but would upgrade to brass if I find one I like)
a small char box (metal) X
a slice of horse Hoof fungus X ( going to proceed for the amadou)
a little money X (gold and silver dollar coins in a cloth bag. Spendable and less anachronistic than folding money)

an arrowhead
a sewing kit ( awl, needles, waxed thread, leather lace)
a folding knife
a small candle stub
a fishing kit
a small sharpening stone
snare wire
waxed jute or natural fiber cordage

Thanks for the suggestions! The contents have been modified to reflect all of your input!
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby Iodo » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:34 am

Sounds good so far, it doesn't seem like you have too much left to add, well done :P
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby JeffCee » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:09 am

Iodo,
Thank you very much, sir!
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby Rumbletweed » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:15 pm

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Last edited by Rumbletweed on Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What are the contents of Aragorn's belt pouch?

Postby TaylorSteiner » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:01 pm

Wow a Boarderwatch! I'm jealous.
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