New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Ursus » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:06 pm

Elleth wrote:Udwin has a fairly compelling source implying Merry's blade is bronze rather than steel it's so old.
... but it's far younger than Narsil.

And now Boromir's contemporary blade is "in fashion like" one forged back in the first age.

There's a couple ways to reconcile all those, but none of them are very satisfying, to be honest.
Truly a topic worthy of a Martinez column. :)


To that end you might argue that there are some finds from the ancient world that aren’t dissimilar to blades from the mid to late Middle Ages. I’m at work and don’t have the source handy but I know I’ve seen heavily tapered bronze blades and I believe several early iron ones that are very similar to strongly tapered swords from the 14-15 century. If we agreee that Gondor is farther along the timeline than other regions this could be a good way to tie in the similarity’s between the “modern” sword of Boromir and the ancient Anduril.

Also you might look at it as weapons and armor often evolve to meet the challenges each present to the other. Seeing as maille has been the main armor of Middle Earth since the beginning it may be that swords haven’t really evolved much in shape and form but rather the quality of their manufacture.
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Elendur Amloth » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:47 am

I apologize for the dissertation here and not to make things more confusing but there is also the text in "The Field of Cormallen", RotK - "On the throne sat a mail-clad man, a great sword was laid across his knees, but he wore no helm. As they drew near he rose. And then they knew him, changed as he was, so high and glad of face, kingly, lord of Men, dark-haired with eyes of grey." We know that at Helm's Deep Aragorn wielded Anduril one-handed - "Near the bottom stood Aragorn. In his hand still Andúril gleamed, and the terror of the sword for a while held back the enemy, as one by one all who could gain the stair passed up towards the gate." Does "In his hand" mean he wielded it only one-handed or that he had at least one hand around the hilt?" Was this an actual "great sword" or are we just getting a Hobbit's perspective in that all swords above a short sword are "great swords"? I think Tolkien knew his swords so I think we should assume that the Professor was using the historical connotation here. Now "great swords" can typically be two-handed to hand and a half as there is much debate over the exact "mark" that makes them one or the other, whether you go to the profile standpoint or the functionality standpoint.

Now being Dunedain, Aragorn was tall - "Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man ..., probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Numenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4)." [Tolkien Papers, Bodleian Library, Oxford]
Hammond & Scull (eds) - Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion: Page 229

Now myself, I am 6'-3", 240 lbs and have 30" long arms. I'm a few inches shorter than Aragorn for sure but for years my weapon of choice for individual and controlled sword sparring has been a 48-3/4" Johann Schmidberger Austrian Masterpiece. The sword has a 37-1/4" blade, an 11-1/2" quillon/cross-guard (very useful for off-setting an opponent's thrusts or trapping an opposing blade and for protecting any openings especially in a grapple. The long cross-guard is especially handy in the use of the Mordhau or "murder strike". The hilt is about 9-1/2" with an additional 2" scent stopper pommel. I think this sword could best be described as a hand and half although the hilt is somewhat long and these measurements approximate many historical examples from the 15th and 16th centuries. In my opinion my sword falls somewhere between the Oakshott type XIIIa and the Oakshott Type XX category. Of course this is only my opinion but I think this sword in my mind at least, approximates Anduril in size.


I have used this sword one handed with a buckler (see Paulus Kal Fechtbuch, among others) although it is of course more unwieldy this way to one not so used to its length and weight. We know Anduril is reforged and that Aragorn is a bit shorter than Elendil the Tall so as Michael Martinez says, "Narsil was a very ancient sword, said by Aragorn to have been made “by Telchar in the deeps of time”. The blade would have been made for a Noldorin prince or warrior and only eventually found its way into the hands of the Numenoreans. By the time it came down to Elendil he was considered to be very tall for a Numenorean (hence his nickname, “Elendil the Tall”). Aragorn was much shorter than Elendil. When Andúril was reforged one must presume that Elrond’s smiths made a sword that Aragorn could wield comfortably."

But I have to agree with my Ranger brethren here that such a sword is more unwieldy in the forest so on wilderness excursions I sometimes wear a shorter sword at my waist. When I do carry the longer sword, I use a specially made scabbard that has a strap that goes over one shoulder. This way it doesn't drag the ground or the quillons and hilt length interfere with life as it would if it were worn at waist level. This version might be more suited to a Ranger traveling roads, plains and fields as many of the Rangers did near the Shire and Bree (although Aragorn's sword was broken and of little use at that time). We do know he carried at least the hilt and one foot section at his side for it says, "He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller. In his eyes gleamed a light, keen and commanding. Throwing back his cloak, he laid his hand on the hilt of a sword that had hung concealed by his side....." Did he perhaps carry the rest of the shards in his bag and wear the sword at his side as a sign of rank or possible intimidation to an enemy? Of course, we cannot be totally sure of Tolkien's knowledge of various sword types but here is a good link to a study of his archaeological knowledge: https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cg ... t=mythlore

We can tell at least that he studied swords extensively in literature at least for we have this from the Volsunga Saga when Sigurd inherits his father’s sword Gram: “keep well withal the shards of the sword: thereof shall a goodly sword be made, and it shall be called Gram, and our son shall bear it, and shall work many a great work therewith” and “So he (Regin) made a sword, and as he bore it forth from the forge, it seemed to the smiths as though fire burned along the edges thereof”. And this of Aragorn, “Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard and keen”. I think it safe to say that Tolkien was perhaps familiar with sword history. At least he doesn't use the term "broadsword" for any sword in his works to my knowledge, a term that would have been at home with any Victorian era armchair sword aficionado. :P
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Greg » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:26 pm

Regardless of how you approach the term "Great", there is no assumption to be made regarding whether or not Aragorn used the sword one- or two-handed at Helm's deep: he acquired a shield from the armoury there.
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Ursus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:35 pm

Elendur Amloth wrote:Now being Dunedain, Aragorn was tall - "Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man ..., probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Numenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4)." [Tolkien Papers, Bodleian Library, Oxford]
Hammond & Scull (eds) - Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion: Page 229

Now myself, I am 6'-3", 240 lbs and have 30" long arms. I'm a few inches shorter than Aragorn for sure but for years my weapon of choice for individual and controlled sword sparring has been a 48-3/4" Johann Schmidberger Austrian Masterpiece. The sword has a 37-1/4" blade, an 11-1/2" quillon/cross-guard (very useful for off-setting an opponent's thrusts or trapping an opposing blade and for protecting any openings especially in a grapple. The long cross-guard is especially handy in the use of the Mordhau or "murder strike". The hilt is about 9-1/2" with an additional 2" scent stopper pommel. I think this sword could best be described as a hand and half although the hilt is somewhat long and these measurements approximate many historical examples from the 15th and 16th centuries. In my opinion my sword falls somewhere between the Oakshott type XIIIa and the Oakshott Type XX category. Of course this is only my opinion but I think this sword in my mind at least, approximates Anduril in size.

But I have to agree with my Ranger brethren here that such a sword is more unwieldy in the forest so on wilderness excursions I sometimes wear a shorter sword at my waist. When I do carry the longer sword, I use a specially made scabbard that has a strap that goes over one shoulder. This way it doesn't drag the ground or the quillons and hilt length interfere with life as it would if it were worn at waist level. This version might be more suited to a Ranger traveling roads, plains and fields as many of the Rangers did near the Shire and Bree (although Aragorn's sword was broken and of little use at that time).



I feel your pain I'm 6'8 and 250 myself. It kind of makes crafting your own clothes a pain and joy at the same time.

Swords will always come down to personal preference. I think the hang ups, if can even call them that, come from the fact that the drive of the forum as a group is to create a solid visual culture of what a Dunedain ranger and their kin would truly look like. As such so many of us strive to maintain a similar but not exact look from one person to the next. We do this through similar clothes and packs and smaller pieces of kit but weapons like their wielders will always be different as the Dunedain are not a disciplined military unit that works in a series of highly drilled tactics but rather individual groups of warriors that occasionally band together to strike out in a guerrilla style of warfare to safe guard large strategic tracts of wilderness.

Swords worn anywhere near the back is always a touchy subject but as you mentioned wearing a longer blade thusly for travel can be somewhat convenient. This drawing by my favorite Tolkien visual artist Turner Mohan captures it pretty well with the chap on the right carrying his longsword in his bedroll. I've done this myself at times and while I prefer a simple duel strap suspension from my waist belt this method isn't to uncomfortable to wear either.
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Ursus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:38 pm

Greg wrote:Regardless of how you approach the term "Great", there is no assumption to be made regarding whether or not Aragorn used the sword one- or two-handed at Helm's deep: he acquired a shield from the armoury there.



It will always be a solid indication though I've often wondered if it was strictly for combat or to use as cover while moving about the battlements during the opening of the assault. Likely both I’d guess. I know I wouldn't want to make myself an easy target while moving between the crenellations of a wall.

Lumping the whole concept of Anduril' size, tall folk, shields, and one or two hand wielding I'll speak for tall warriors and say that as a whole it is possible to use a larger sword in one hand or with a shield and not only use it but use it gracefully and with skill if your training is up to the task, it will always come down to the individual. I can and do train with a shield and Cadeyrn regularly because I enjoy it and in an open fight combined with my height and speed it is just plain savage. Savage or no though my sword is meant to be used to its maximum potential in two hands and that is where I place the bulk of my training.

To sum up the original post and quit my incessant rambling I will say that I think we generally accept all things sharp and pointy that fall in a 400-ish year period as fitting to our fun and eccentric little hobby.
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Elleth » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:12 pm

I was wondering where that image got to! I had a vague recollection Mr. Mohan did an illustration of Rangers and couldn't find it.
Interesting drawing!

For what it's worth, Matt Easton just made an interesting observation on his youTube channel, echoing much of what you just said Ursus: hypothesizing halberdiers (I think?) using shields to advance under missile fire, then dropping the shield to use their (obviously) two-handed weapon once they were close in. I'd always taken the "used with a shield" and "concealed under his cloak" references as fairly solid evidence Narsil was one-handed, but that's some new information to chew on. (even laying aside your obvious experience using that beast of a sword with a shield) Hrmm....

For those of you guys who use the two-handed swords: I assume the scent-stopper style pommels are a practical adaptation: how practical are those brazil-nut pommels when used on two-handed weapons, as on Mr. Mohan's drawing and (I think?) some other longer hilted fantasy swords?
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Ursus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:32 pm

Elleth wrote: I'd always taken the "used with a shield" and "concealed under his cloak" references as fairly solid evidence Narsil was one-handed, but that's some new information to chew on. (even laying aside your obvious experience using that beast of a sword with a shield) Hrmm....

For those of you guys who use the two-handed swords: I assume the scent-stopper style pommels are a practical adaptation: how practical are those brazil-nut pommels when used on two-handed weapons, as on Mr. Mohan's drawing and (I think?) some other longer hilted fantasy swords?


True yet at the same time if I arrange my longsword to hang more vertically with a more generic sword frog my mid calf length cloak covers it almost completely when standing or sitting. It’s kind of a fun wow factor to fling back the cloak on the left side to reveal it.

I’m pretty strictly a wheel pommel kind of guy so I’ve never owned a sword with a Brazil nut pommel. I can’t imagine it being terribly comfortable on a longer hilted sword, though I do think I’ve seen evidence of early longswords that had them. Though the sword in the picture has a much more subtle shaped pommel that doesn’t look like it would be uncomfortable to use at all.
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Elendur Amloth » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:22 pm

Great drawing to illustrate Ursus! Yes, the bedroll version does seem convenient. At your size you're certainly closer to Aragorn's size and yes, you know well that we can adapt some of the old manuscript training drawings due to larger size. We might be a little slower but we've got the reach! As to the shield - certainly Aragorn could have used it as well as the larger sword but one would be circumspect as to whether he would use it close quarters. We know that he and Legolas had mail and round shields with bosses (so perhaps lighter weight than a Kite or a large Heater). Perhaps it could have been used against arrow shot as he passed the crenellations but it could have also been used for intimidation. Imagine a larger guy with a shield and large sword. You know he's got the sword and not only can he protect himself but he can punch block with the shield as well, so not only might it be practical - it can intimidate as well. I've not trained so much with the "heater" shield using my sword so I can't speak for how wieldy it would be and I have to say. I don't prefer the buckler with the long sword and follow Herbert Schmidt's thinking here perhaps. Some people have played around with the idea of the buckler (even though it might cease to become a buckler at that point :P ) on the arm but many feel that to be more counter-productive and historically may have been used only for judicial duels in Eastern Europe.

As to the advantage of height, here's a good article: http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 5veR6ZKiUk

You're certainly right - I think it is more of an individual choice and Rangers perhaps did have multiple weapons to choose from - whether the sword be closer to the arming type (All-in-all, probably more practical for woods roaming) or the longsword.

Elleth, as to the brazil nut pommel, I don't prefer it myself as I find it uncomfortable and less adaptable to hand positions. This pommel may work better on a shorter sword. For me, a scent stopper allows for better winding movements. But some may differ.
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Ursus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:40 pm

Elendur Amloth wrote:Great drawing to illustrate Ursus! Yes, the bedroll version does seem convenient. At your size you're certainly closer to Aragorn's size and yes, you know well that we can adapt some of the old manuscript training drawings due to larger size. We might be a little slower but we've got the reach! As to the shield - certainly Aragorn could have used it as well as the larger sword but one would be circumspect as to whether he would use it close quarters. We know that he and Legolas had mail and round shields with bosses (so perhaps lighter weight than a Kite or a large Heater). Perhaps it could have been used against arrow shot as he passed the crenellations but it could have also been used for intimidation. Imagine a larger guy with a shield and large sword. You know he's got the sword and not only can he protect himself but he can punch block with the shield as well, so not only might it be practical - it can intimidate as well. I've not trained so much with the "heater" shield using my sword so I can't speak for how wieldy it would be and I have to say. I don't prefer the buckler with the long sword and follow Herbert Schmidt's thinking here perhaps. Some people have played around with the idea of the buckler (even though it might cease to become a buckler at that point :P ) on the arm but many feel that to be more counter-productive and historically may have been used only for judicial duels in Eastern Europe.


Heater shields are fun but I prefer a medium sized round shield with a center grip and a guige strap so I can release it in a hurry. The guige strap can hinder movement but it’s great to be able to sling the shield behind me in a hurry and still be able to redeploy it as opposed to just dropping it.

Ironically enough for my size I’m quicker than most average size athletes and proud of it because I’ve worked most of my life gaining and maintaining it. I always get quietly amused when fellow swordsman see my height and choice of weapon and clearly make the “me smash, big, slow barbarian assumption” then I get to enjoy the face change when I move an almost 5 lb 51 inch war sword like it’s a yard stick. Though for all the bluster and appearance I prefer to let my devotion to pursuing the Art speak on the salle floor over any height,strength,or sword preference. “In character” it’s all for the sake of protecting my kin and companions.

Either way it’s all deadly. Pun intended.
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Elleth » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:57 am

Out of curiosity, what do you guys think of this general concept as a default book-lore "rangery" blade? Imagine an Albion blade (Yeoman) with a brazil nut pommel (Reeve) and plain norse-ish (Jarl) guard.
Possibly etched or engraved Numenorean-ish art?

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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby TaylorSteiner » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:42 am

Very nice. Thumbs up from me.
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Peter Remling » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:07 am

Nice, particularly if you can keep the POB where the Yeoman's is at just over 4".
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Ursus » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:15 pm

Elleth wrote:Out of curiosity, what do you guys think of this general concept as a default book-lore "rangery" blade? Imagine an Albion blade (Yeoman) with a brazil nut pommel (Reeve) and plain norse-ish (Jarl) guard.
Possibly etched or engraved Numenorean-ish art?

merf-albion-ranger.jpg



I like it a lot. My only change would be to make the pommel a little more of a type B or even B1 according to Oakeshotts typology but then again I’m more partial to rounded lines on pommels.

I really enjoy your visual take on things. Any chance you could throw me a bone and give me your take on a Dunedain longsword built on an Albion Baron or Duke?
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Elleth » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:20 pm

Thank you gentlemen. :)

Ursus - happy to!

Since I'm by no means an expert at actually using swords though: can you talk some about what hilt features are important from the standpoint of realistic use and woodland carry?

For example, is it meaningful that the guard in those examples is a relatively slim bar type perpendicular to the blade, as opposed to wider/flatter, or curved towards the tip? Is the round pommel purely an aesthetic preference, or does it impact your grip/use in an important way?
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Re: New guy, first post... What do you look for in a Ranger sword?

Postby Ursus » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:54 pm

Elleth wrote:Thank you gentlemen. :)

Ursus - happy to!

Since I'm by no means an expert at actually using swords though: can you talk some about what hilt features are important from the standpoint of realistic use and woodland carry?

For example, is it meaningful that the guard in those examples is a relatively slim bar type perpendicular to the blade, as opposed to wider/flatter, or curved towards the tip? Is the round pommel purely an aesthetic preference, or does it impact your grip/use in an important way?


An excellent question with a complex answer lol.

I can’t really add anything to woodland carry other than to say the best thing you can do with a sword regardless of length is to just get comfortable with it. When you learn to be aware of it most of any hindrances encountered are solved.

To keep it somewhat simple I’ll say broadly that guards depend largely on personal preference. Curved guards tend to bind and trap a bit better but this isn’t always a good thing in my experience so I prefer a straight guard, preferably a “bow tie” shape as the dip from the initial flair gives you some elements of a curved guard as well. It’s enough to keep my hands safe, binds or traps adequately, and has the added advantage of punching better. In section I like it to be squarer as opposed to rounded as the angles also lend to catching an edge ever so slightly. While this does tend to scar a guard a bit it’s always important to remember that a sword is a tool of combat. On that note I do have a soft spot for cultural decor on swords but have yet to take the leap in that regard. Even so there is just something about a plain blade that is more beautiful to my eye than one that is carved or inlaid. I do have plans to etch my fuller in ogham one day though.

For pommel shape I always prefer a wheel pommel with a raised center. The round shape gives excellent transitional movement while the raised center lends texture during various grippings.

Nothing on my sword is there by accident. It was designed for function first and aesthetic second.
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